Talk:Causes of World War II

Bias in opening text

The opening suggests a much too simplistic cause of the war and only emphasises the fault of Germany and Japan. All nations involved were at fault to some degree. I think it should be rewritten to better reflect the complexity of the issuses as presented in the article. To suggest that there was an immediated cause detracts from the discussion. An introduction should draw a reader into an investigation of the cause of the war rather than making any conclusion. Mike 172.168.13.182 (talk) 21:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I find the simplicity appropriate in the lead. The reader came here to read the rest of the article and will explore the complexities with each new section encountered. Fault will be seen to fall in a number of directions. Binksternet (talk) 00:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It is somewhat of bias so perhaps it should read.....The culmination of events that led to World War II are generally understood to be the invasion of Poland by Germany and of China by the Empire of Japan. These military aggressions were the decisions made by authoritarian ruling elites in Germany and Japan. World War II started after these aggressive actions were met with an official declaration of war and/or armed resistance.172.162.67.210 (talk) 15:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Not bad, not bad... You are proposing to change "The immediate causes of" to "The culmination of events that led to" in the opening sentence. I think this is helpful direction. Binksternet (talk) 18:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Britain's strategy of turning Germany eastwards to destroy USSR

Hey, I want to add in the view that Chamberlain's strategy was to turn Germany eastwards to destroy USSR. That view seems to be missing here.

...And by this date, certain members of the Milner Group and of the British Conservative government had reached the fantastic idea that they could kill two birds with one stone by setting Germany and Russia against one another in Eastern Europe.

In this way they felt that the two enemies would stalemate one another, or that Germany would become satisfied with the oil of Rumania and the wheat of the Ukraine.

It never occurred to anyone in a responsible position that Germany and Russia might make common cause, even temporarily, against the West. Even less did it occur to them that Russia might beat Germany and thus open all Central Europe to Bolshevism.

This idea of bringing Germany into a collision with Russia was not to be found, so far as the evidence shows, among any members of the inner circle of the Milner Group.

Rather it was to be found among the personal associates of Neville Chamberlain, including several members of the second circle of the Milner Group. The two policies followed parallel courses until March 1939. After that date the Milner Group’s disintegration became very evident, and part of it took the form of the movement of several persons (like Hoare and Simon) from the second circle of the Milner Group to the inner circle of the new group rotating around Chamberlain...''

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html

A comment

This article looks like a list; it is awfully unfocused. Obviously, the key "immediate" causes were: (a) German invasion of Poland, (b) the German attack on the USSR, and (c) the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor. So, this article should try to answer three major questions: (a) why did Germany invade Poland?; (b)why did Germany attack the USSR?, and (c) why did Japan attack US? These questions are poorly debated in this article, although they were debated in literature. After reading this article, a reader has absolutely no idea what was actually the reason(s) of this war. Another serious shortcoming is lack of in-line citations.Biophys (talk) 04:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Also why did Britain and France declare war on Germany when Germany attacked Poland. The reason (public pressure on the british and french governments) is also not given. 218.186.12.10 (talk) 09:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That is easier to answer, but yes, the reasons behind moves by all sides should be explained. This suppose to be a very interesting article. Just needs some work, and the in-line citation should be provided of course.Biophys (talk) 16:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The questions raised by Biophys are quite correct and reasonable. --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

South Tyrol

"Contributing to this, the Allies did not occupy any part of Germany, with the Western front having been in France for years. Only the German colonies were taken during the war, and Italy took South Tyrol after an armistice had been agreed upon."

O my goodness... South Tyrol was NOT a part of Germany, but a part of Austria-Hungary. --Mike F (German wikipedia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.115.20 (talk) 17:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Competition for Resources

reader comment -- The Resource Competition section is what I was most interested in. It gave the story for Japan but not for Europe. I consulted Wikipedia because I was interested in both stories. Anyone know the resource competition story for Europe? --Bmarmie (talk) 20:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Macedons??

"For example, Yugoslavia (originally the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes) had 5 major ethnic groups (the Serbs, Croats, Macedons, Montenegrins, and the Slovenes),"

THERE WAS NO "MACEDONS" ETHNIC GROUP IN YUGOSLAVIA BEFORE WORLD WAR II —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feta (talk • contribs) 03:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Invasion of the USSR

Per WP:ASF, "in attributing competing views, it is necessary to ensure that the attribution adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity." The section in its previous form payed more attention to the fringe Suvorov's theory than to the majority's views. The last para created a false impression of parity between Suvorov's critics and (partial) supporters. Fixed. References added.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, Suvorov's theory represents a minority views, and should be represented accordingly. Please, avoid violation of WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The Molotov Riblentrop pact

I ereased this section because it was a bunch of non-sense letters. I hope someone writes about the Molotov Riblentrop pact beacause of it’s importance in the invation to Poland--Elazoteescriba (talk) 05:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Picture with a wrong descriptition

Westerplate is in Danzig but the pic is made in Gdingen

Deutsch: Das deutsche Schlachtschiff Schleswig-Holstein beschießt die Stadt Gdingen während dem Polenfeldzug. English: German battleship Schleswig-Holstein during a shellfire of Gdynia.--79.240.212.196 (talk) 10:44, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

German battleship Schleswig-Holstein, Westerplatte, September 1, 1939.

Why no mention of the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and the war with China?

Absolutely nothing is mentioned about the Japanese invasion of Manchuria which is the true start of the war. The heading is "Causes of World War 2" not "Causes of the European War". 210.17.155.120 (talk) 08:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Lead up to Pearl Harbor

In this edit I've removed some material which seems to relate to the view that the US Government deliberatly goaded the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor. In particular, the material was anchored around a quote from Henry L. Stimson's diary that "he had discussed with US President Roosevelt the severe likelihood of imminent war with Japan and that the question had been "how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves"". However, the full text of the diary entry in the source provided actually states:

The President brought up the event that we were likely to be attacked, perhaps (as soon as) next Monday, for the Japanese are notorious for making an attack without warning, and the question was what we should do. The question was how we should maneuver them into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.

When I got back to the Department I found news from G-2 that a Japanese expedition had started. Five divisions had come down from Shantung and Shansi to Shanghai and there they had embarked on ships—thirty, forty or fifty ships—and have been sighted south of Formosa. I at once called up Hull and told him about it and sent copies to him and to the President. . . .

As such, it is clear that the discussion was about how to manage the imminent Japanese surprise attack (which was in fact being launched at the time of the conversation, as was soon discovered), and not diplomatic and military maneuvering aiming to spark war. The text I've removed then went on suggest that this exchange was linked to the Hull Note (without citation) and provided vauge text from another source suggesting FDR regarded the attack on Pearl Harbor as a price worth paying. More generally, if one theory of the US Government's actions in the lead up to the start of the Pacific War is going to be presented, competing views also need to be covered. Nick-D (talk) 11:37, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Reparations: article littered with errors

This articles coverage of the reparation issue is extremely flawed and is playing into the myth that they were harsh and excessive.

Firstly, the ABC news article that claims Germany made her final reparation a few years ago and used as evidence to support the notion that the payments were harsh, acknowledges that the claim is hyperbole. The ABC News article states "The German government will pay the last instalment of interest on foreign bonds it issued in 1924 and 1930 to raise cash to fulfil the enormous reparations demands the victorious Allies made after World War I." Paying off a loan is not paying off reparation payments. This article does not link to, or even mention the Lausanne Conference of 1932 that makes it very clear the reparation payments were stopped by 1932 and not a mark was paid towards reparations thereafter, they had been wiped clean. What was paid off post WW2 were loans taken out during the inter-war years.

Second, the payments were not as harsh as popular believed nor as this article makes out. The 1921 Reparation Payment figure established that Germany would have to pay 132,000 million gold marks in reparations. Most importantly this figure was split into three categories with 80,000 million marks being in class C, "which amounted to indefinitive postponement of about 80,000 millions..."(Bell, pp. 22-23) or around 60 per cent of the bill. Sally Marks notes that the C bonds were all smoke and mirrors that the allies had no intention of collecting but were put in place to provide evidence of punishing Germany to a war weary French public.

Historian Stephen Schuker highlights that the payments amounted to only 6 per cent of the German economy in 1921(Martel, p. 42-43). The Dawes Plan of 1924 established payment should be made at 1,000 million gold marks in 1924 rising to 2,500 million gold marks in the fifth year; payments to amount to only 3.3 per cent GDP(Bell, p. 38, Martel, p. 43). However, during the entire period reparations were paid i.e. the 1920s before the debt was wrote off, the payments amounted to no more than on average 2 per cent (Martel, p. 50). Germany borrowed heavily from the USA to make reparation payments (Bell, p. 41). The Young Plan lowered payments to 2.6 per cent GDP. The 1931 conference saw the entire system abandoned. The various downward revisions, inflation, Germany defaulting on foreign investment, loans, and reparation payments resulted in "a unilateral transfer equal to a startling 5.3 per cent of German national income for 1919-31.(Martel, p. 43)

Bell, The Origins of the Second World War in Europe Martel, The Origins of the Second World War reconsidered

EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:41, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Addition of Communism

Alright, I feel that the page does a pretty decent job by and large of covering the topic, but out of everything the absence of Communism seems pretty damn major. The Soviet Union was one of the major driving forces behind the leadup to WWII and a lot of the causes can be traced back to its' probing around looking to expand. The alliance between it and the Weimar era Reichswehr under von Seeckt is absolutely massive in and of itself because without it you really don't have a history of German re-armament. Without the attempts to move out of the old Tsardom in the 1910's and early 20's we wouldn't have Eastern European history looking even remotely like it does, particularly vis-a-vis Finland, Poland, the Baltics, et cetera.

Really, the article does a good job covering the rise of Fascism and its' cousins, but it takes two to tango and the omission of the Soviet governments' role in fanning the flames is at best a stain on this fine page. 75.36.164.227 (talk) 20:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

aldo was a main part of WW2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.223.80 (talk) 16:47, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be a joke? USSR was attempting to build a common European security system since the end of it's civil war (being at war for a while, with everyone invading you does that to people) and the old Allied powers were busy feeding Hitler territories and ignoring it breaking treaty rules. The Poles, later painted as innocent victims of aggression, invaded and occupied Western Ukraine, Belorussia (Polish Soviet War), parts of Lithuania, and annexed a bit of Czechoslovakia in tandem with Germans and Hungarians. They had a nonaggression pact with Hitler long before anyone else did, and refused French+Russian+Czechoslovak attempts to contain Germany together. Their plan was to attack East with Hitler. UK+France sent negotiators to Stalin with no permission to sign anything on paper, or discuss any joint military strategy in case of war. When it became clear they were just stalling for time to pressure Hitler, Stalin offered the Germans a nonaggression pact.

Just because USSR got dissolved doesn't mean you can blame it for everything without proof. AzzAzeL-US (talk) 20:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Intro needs reforming

Currently it begins with:

"Out of all causes of World War II, the desire and ability of Adolf Hitler, in control of Nazi Germany, to dominate Europe (especially agrarian lands in the East) and resettle German farmers was dominant"

Starting like this is wrong and inflammatory. Wikipedia intros need to be based on the content of the article, and give something of the flavour of it. In particular, in this case there needs to be some acknowledgement of the whole host of causes and then (perhaps), summarize with the current text. Snori (talk) 20:55, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

The current lede follows the RS and emphasizes multiple goals: the "desire and ability of Adolf Hitler, in control of Nazi Germany, to dominate Eastern Europe, eliminate the Jews, and replace Slavic farmers with resettled German farmers." Rjensen (talk) 22:20, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

But the way it is formulated is absolutely misleading, and I came to this talk page exactly to raise the issue and at least it confirms my concerns that Snori has already raised it. I absolutely agree that Lebensraum was a major factor, but to present it as if all others were secondary (to take one at random, Versailles revisionism and the desire of many Germans to see Germny re-established as a great power was at least as important), and on top of that in a way that would leave one believing it was some kind of agricultural lobby policy is simply astonishing, and I had trouble believing I was really reading what I thought I was reading. ^walk victor falk ^talk 17:49, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the text works fine--the other "causes" (Versailles revisionism and the desire of many Germans to see Germany re-established as a great power) had been fully achieved by 1936-38 and did not cause a war in 1939. It was caused when Hitler invaded east--into Poland (Britain and France declared war) and 1941 when he moved further east (into USSR, which now entered the war). The text explains why he moved east. are there some other causes that need mentioning?? Rjensen (talk) 01:40, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

There's another issue with the intro - the opening sentence in fact - it currently reads 'Among the main long-term causes of World War II were Britain and France declaring war on Germany after it invaded Poland...' which clearly isn't accurate, the declaration of war by Britain obviously can't be considered a long-term cause, so the wording needs to be altered somehow. Jlctom (talk) 00:13, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes I fixed that to read: "The immediate cause was Britain and France declaring war on Germany after it invaded Poland in September 1939." Rjensen (talk) 00:34, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

What of Japanese Reasons? And the date of Start and End of War

None of the major Japanese complaints are listed 1. Blocking of racial equality clause. This simply meant that Japanese are just second rate citizens. 2. Japan's war of aggression came only because all it's attempts to get resources peacefully were blocked. Read the American terms of ultimatum against Japanese advance. 3. Manchuria incident. If Japan invades and brutalizes Manchuria, it cannot be termed humane, but western imperialism can be? It is the same question Japan asked in the debate. A simplest instance of this is the drug trade emanating from Manchuria conveniently forgetting that British India hit the world's all time drug production levels(even more than Columbia and Afghanistan combined in their peak years), I believe in 1906. By the way, when did the second world war start? Is it 1931(Second China War) or 1935(Invasion of Ethiopia) or is it just a continuation of the first world war after a brief lull? And when did it end? 1945 - Surrender of Japan 1953 - Korea War 1950 - Chinese Civil War 1949 - Indonesian Independence 1975 - Vietnam War(technically reestablishing control over pre-war territories) This is under the assumption that the low level civil war still going on in Korea or between China and Taiwan is not considered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.220.226.43 (talk) 22:12, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I know this is a group project, but it's got some crazy ideas in it

What caused world war II? Germany's attack on other countries, not Britain and France's declaration of war. Economic problems caused hitler to fight? No, he was planning on this from the beginning. Nazi apologists don't belong on Wiki.173.65.3.69 (talk) 18:44, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Prior to Britain and France's war declarations, it was merely a localised war: The German Invasion of Poland, and not a European or World war yet. On the note of 'economic problems', I've never heard of Nazi-era Germany having economic problems until it was bombed by the RAF and USAF halfway through the war..

"Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view", so while its articles shouldn't promote Nazi apologism, it also shouldn't promote the opposite, including pointing some (truthful) blame onto France, the UK, USA (etc, etc). Zjohn4 (talk) 17:39, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Soviet influence in Europe

(It's a copy of a dicussion in Talk:World Wat II. If such copy is illegal, please correct.)

The Soviet Union was highly militarized, the Red Army was the biggest army of the world in 1939. Soviet industry produced arms or new plants, almost no consumption goods. The SU wanted to "liberate" people of the world, at least the ones of Europe, and wanted to annect former Russian lands. Communist parties were controlled from Moscow. Summarizing - Soviet politics influenced Europe. The text criticizes the West, who didn't cooperate with the Soviets. The Soviets murdered millions before WWII, Nazis thousands.Xx236 (talk) 08:56, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

the USSR was indeed heavily militarized, but Stalin had purged most of the generals and many of the key personnel in 1938. Military analysts in all major nations decided that the result was a very weak and leaderless, albeit very large, army. Rjensen (talk) 08:58, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

An army is only a part of a militarized nation, the other ones being industry, police (which had an army Internal Troops), total terror. The 1941 Red Army was almost completely destroyed, but the second or even the third Red Army won the war.

I also believe that the purge of officers was wrong, but there are some authors who accept the purge of uneducated Bolsheviks.

Xx236 (talk) 10:47, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Can you explain what part of the text you are objecting to?--Jack Upland (talk) 12:42, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Background#Europe describes Western Europe, it doesn't inform about Soviet war preparations, Communist influence in Europe, including the conflict between Socialists and Communists in Germany, which opened the way to Hitler.Xx236 (talk) 08:19, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

It does mention the political conflict in Germany; it just isn't specific. It also doesn't mention the Great Depression, which is a major omission. I guess the section could be expanded, but, then again, it has to be in proportion to the article. I don't think that mainstream historians emphasise the Soviet military threat. The Soviet naval and air forces were negligible. Soviet economic policies were widely regarded as disastrous, and the country was in political turmoil, with key government figures being purged. It wasn't Soviet military strength that conditioned Hitler's war in the East, but perceived Soviet military weakness, as exemplified in the Winter War. Most people, including Hitler, underestimated Soviet potential.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:00, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

The Devils' Alliance: Hitler's Pact with Stalin, 1939-1941 by Roger Moorhouse. Moorhouse looks to be quite mainstream.

You don't need any navy to annect Europe, if you have Ukraine.Xx236 (talk) 07:08, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

World War II aircraft production.Xx236 (talk) 07:13, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I believe that you are Western-centric (please translate into English). The WWII took place mostly in Eastern Europe, the majority of victims came from the East. The West had freedom to create biased image of WWII in Europe.Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

If you mean the phrase The interwar period saw strife between supporters of the new republic and hardline opponents on both the right and left it doesn't say about the Socialists-Communists conflict. 1925 Because of Thälmann's participation the left-wing vote was split, giving an advantage to Hindenburg. Some Berlin Communists cooperated with Nazis during a 1932 strike. Xx236 (talk) 07:41, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Historians do not attribute the start of World War II to the Soviet Union, so there's no reason to emphasise its role as suggested here. Nick-D (talk) 11:14, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I think you should look on a dictionary what this adjective you're attributing really means. Bertdrunk (talk) 03:49, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

All historians or some Russian historians? The moon causes tidal effects, the same big army and arm industry and Communist parties cause effects even if some historians don't see it.Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

It is significant that in his Testament, even as Red Army troops were entering Berlin, Hitler blamed the war on international Jewry, specifically financiers, not on the looming Soviet threat in 1939. Most international observers thought the war between Germany and the USSR would be over in a couple of months. The USSR had struggled against Finland, and its military had been decapitated by Stalin's purges. Its air force was technologically backward. Its navy was weak. It was unable to defend its Baltic Coast, so Leningrad was vulnerable. The weakness of the USSR was demonstrated as soon as the war started with Germany.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:59, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The weak USSR won the war. the war between Germany and the USSR would be over in a couple of months - probably if Germany allowed to dissolve kolkhoses. But Hitler's Germany wasn't able to win the USSR killing and robbing.

Leningrad was vulnerable but successful.

You hardly can use a real navy in the Baltic pond. Xx236 (talk) 07:18, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Piłsudski regime in 1934

The phrase links a page about a period which starts in 1935. Please respect basic maths.Xx236 (talk) 07:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Poland participated in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia by annexing Zaolzie. - the dismembering was decided in Munich by European superpowers, UK and France including. Poland didn't participate in Munich confrence. Czechoslovakia didn't want to fight for its freedom.

Czechoslovakia participated in failed dismembering of Poland 1919-1920. Hungary also participated in dismembering Czechoslovakia, not mentioned. There existed conflict between Hungary and Romania, which made both countries vulnerable. Treaty of Trianon Xx236 (talk) 08:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

The timeline of the subsection is wrong, it starts with After the final fate of Czechoslovakia and later goes to Zaolzie.Xx236 (talk) 08:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

The Soviet Union had lost territory to Poland in 1920. - the SU had lost Russian terrritory also to Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Romania.Xx236 (talk) 08:25, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Mass strikeout

What's with the mass strike out of the entire bottom 95% of this talk page? 83.250.66.213 (talk) 07:34, 24 June 2020 (UTC)